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enactivism
November 2009 
enactivism...after thoughts as it pertains to life experiencing..
starlight
this hurricane hitting so close to home, has engaged me in a further exploration into
enactivism and how we actually participate in our own worlds...
i am not saying that we as individuals and families, and communities, do not feel compassion when we hear of some devastating tragedy, like the children starving in third world countries, the devastation of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and now Georgia, or even the devastation that natural disasters cause, like the hurricane that threatens Cuba, New Orleans, and who knows who and what else...
however; what makes us actually go beyond just wishing them well, or thinking good thoughts?
what actually causes some to move...to do...iow, get in their cars, or fly in planes, to
take what is needed in reality, to those that have need?
when 911 happened, we saw an outpouring of human-kindness...people left their lives and in many cases their families, to go and help others...
right now, many are already planning to go and offer their services to the people that will need them...in the coming days and weeks and months...now given, many of these people are doing what they get paid to do...but many are not being paid...
on the one hand, we can engage intellectually, momentarily hold compassion and good thoughts for those around the world that are experiencing this or that...but soon, we go back to our lives, our little problems, and all the rest is forgotten for a time...i mean we got to feed the kids right?
i guess what i am realizing...is that we engage at a distance, until and unless it directly
affects us...what is that affecting us? for some it is if a family member is involved, but
for others it has nothing to do with that...
i remember watching a movie once, wont mention the name of it, cause you all will laugh at me and i would like to keep this intelligent illusion i have going on right now...LOL
anyways, what was said, was that this person had thought that if he ever let himself care about anything passionately and seriously, he would have to care about everything that way, and it would just end up driving him crazy...i can relate to this...but then, he finally realized, that in becoming specifically passionate about one thing, it was quiet fulfilling...
so, what makes us passionate about that one thing...evolution? what makes some doctors passionate about making lots of money, yet others passionate about giving up everything to offer their services in some remote third world country?
what makes the woman down the street go and serve food at the local homeless shelter, and the one next door to her go get her nails done? i am not making judgments here...just observations, and trying to understand...what makes us tic...lol
why are there some right now, getting involved already in helping others that have been displaced by this impending hurricane?
we all have obligations and responsibilities, and i am not saying that everyone should hop on a bus or catch a flight to go and bring aid to those that need it...that would be chaos in and of itself...lol
i am just questioning what makes us engage...to whatever degree we are engaging?
i am sensing that for most of us, that don't hop planes and drive across country every time there is a tragedy, that it would entail how close to home tragedy is hitting?
any thoughts on how this relates to enactivism?
Access: Public
I don't know what enactivism is, sorry. I don't know much of the new age terms, unfortunately. I am, as they say, unschooled.
So just my active human observation…
People engage when something has meaning for them. Some people are called to act and nothing else matters really. For others, there is some level of satisfaction which comes from making a particular gesture to acknowledge the disaster… and this is good enough for them.
I would say that people operate at varying levels of personal responsibility; for some it is just in their immediate space, i.e. themselves, for others, it is the whole entire world. Again, no right or wrong, just the case like you said.
My only issue is the idea that some people have, that they should be 'kudo'd' for acknowledging the disaster when relatively, they've done nothing of particular consequence to help the situation. But that's just me being grumpy lol
Thanks Starlight. Sherri
You've raised some important questions here, Star!
First thing that came to my mind, in the context of enactivism, is that hurricane Gustav is really out there about to enter the Gulf of Mexico on its way towards the American coast. In no way (aside from the effect of our energy intensive way of life on climate change and the warming of the sea) have the people of Louisiana and/or Texas brought this upon themselves because of their thoughts or “karma.” There are causes for this storm, but they are so numerous and complex that to try and lay the blame anywhere in particular would be foolish. It is what we call “an act of nature.” This implies several things, but most significantly, it implies that we cannot control it directly. Human encouraged climate change suggests that there are some long term approaches to minimizing the frequency and strength of these storms, but the immediate circumstance is completely beyond our power to prevent. I think this lack of power causes people not directly in the line of fire to respond in one of two ways: either we shrug it off, go about our day, and say the people affected ran into some bad luck, OR we take action to help minimize the human cost of this “bad luck.” I don't know exactly what it is that sways a person one way or the other. For me personally, I have no excuse for not taking action. I could sacrifice some of my privilege to provide support for those in greater need, but I suppose I hope that others with more disposable income and time will step up to fill in for me. Psychologists call this the “by-stander effect.” When there are many people around and a single person needs help for whatever reason, they are less likely to be helped than if only one or two other people were around. The reason for this is assumed to be identical to my own excuse, that we hope and expect someone else to help them before we do. What ultimately ends up happening after this storm makes landfall depends on a few things: luck, the preparation of the people directly involved, and the social autopoiesis that emerges in the wake of the storm. Genuine compassion is undoubtedly a spontaneous human emotion. It is “self-producing.” It arises not because of anything external to it (ie, it expects no reward in return). I'm hopeful that those who are in a position to help, will help.
Thanks for putting this on the table, Star. Be well, and let us pray for those who may be affected, even if the prayer is merely an expression of our heartfelt support for them through a difficult time, and not a directly causal link between our thoughts, God, and the reality on the ground in Louisiana. Prayers are powerful not for supernatural reasons, but because they tend to push people into action.
Matt
Matt, as a praying person who has never pushed anyone into doing a single thing, what do you mean by ' Prayers are powerful not for supernatural reasons, but because they tend to push people into action.'?
Thanks. Sherri
Prayer for me represents our human need to be heard by the whole, not any one in particular. When we think, we are heard only by ourselves. When we speak, we are heard only by those immediately before us. But when we pray, we desire to reach beyond the bounds of any other mode of communication, and in fact to commune directly with all.
I meant that prayer inspires people. It gives hope and strength, it fosters community, and it doesn't matter whether we think it does this because of some supernatural entity. It is powerful regardless.
I am not addressing the supernatural entity; that isn't really the discussion.
I don't think prayer is a human 'need' being expressed; it is a want for some particular outcome, and it is about communing, usually privately, with the force[s] which get things moving in the universe.
As prayer is normally a very private activity, it doesn't by itself, foster community from my observation. Indeed in much of the Western world prayer and God as an entity are not embraced publicly, societally.
I think right now it is the final frontier, now that everything else is failing, actually.
But if prayer inspires, it is from people practising it and seeing results happen, which wouldn't have occured under usual circumstances.
Just my thoughts from my experiences. Thanks.
Sherri
wow…i really appreciate all the comments…and thank you all for your posts…
i am so exhausted right at the moment; but wanted to post a few thoughts that i had…
sherri, i thank you for your honesty, and will try to explain, in my own words exactly what i am asking…first though, i will try to explain enactivism as i understand it…
enactivism is the thinking that we participate actively in creating our world, and that it is an ongoing process, iow, it has evolved into what we are experiencing now, and everything has interacted with everything else over time, and here we are…reaping, in many cases, what has been evolving for as long as this living system of earth and all that is in it, and our universe, has been evolving…
we are reaping the benefits, as well as the derogatory affect of those things that until just recently, like 30 years or so ago, we had no idea of them being so distructive to ourselves and our planet…
so, it is not in any new age sense, where it is believed that we can think something into existence in some magical way…but in the sense that all our cognitive processes, and the way we interact and communicate through language, are systems within systems that have been evolving since the big bang…
so, my question was, that if this is true, and i tend to think it the most accurate example of our present situation, but if this is true, then what is it that prevents us from now cognizing the pitfalls of our own evolution, and engaging in an intelligent way to solve the problems that we now KNOW we face…
it is easy to dismiss it, as Erin alluded to, to selfishness, but if it was purely selfishness, would not our very selfishness provoke us into doing what is necessary to work towards a solution that prevents anymore destruction to ourselves and our planet?
now i know i just took the opposite of what you presented Erin, but what can i say, i sang tonight and my brain is functioning backwards…LOL
i tend to NOT think that compassion drives us necessarily…the person that is not able to help others is not any less compassionate because they might be limited physically to actually participate…now i know i may be getting a little deep here…but i blame that on the symposium…LOL…and i am at a point where i want some solutions…not for me…i could die here now…full of my own inner joy and it wouldn't bother me a bit…but i would like very much to understand what can be done, how we can do it, and get on with it…because i do care, as i am sure most people really do care when it gets right down to it…
what prevents us from reaching any consensus on solution, is our inability, i think, to critically analyse just what the problem is, and then address coherently and effciently…
there is so much 'magical' and 'mythical' thinking, that has also evolved along side of science and technology, that we tend not to be able to see the true from the false…
we fail to see things realistically, and deal with our problems in a constructive and logical way…
now, having said that, i watched the news all day, and am so impressed with what was learned from the tragedy of Katrina, and what is being done now, to prevent the devastation that was suffered then…the evacuation, and the organizations already on the ground, preparing to assist those that are displaced, and those that may need attention…it is really encouraging to see this…
but the larger issue, as i see it, is that we must begin accepting these realities on a larger scale, so that we as a world can work together to solve these environmental issues…i do see this happening, but i get frustrated that it is not happening faster than it is i guess…lol…also, i feel so helpless…i know these things are not going to change overnight, but jesus christ can we get on with it already!!!!!!!
that is why this election is so important to me, and all of us…and why i am so involved in politics presently…
i can remember thinking, after i had an experience of awakening, where my concepts just crumbled…that everything was ok just the way it was, that is what all those 'enlightened' folks say…LOL…but it never really jived with my experiencing…
i continued to be passionate about the things i have always been passionate about…injustices, poverty, equal rights for all, including the children of the world…i hate war…i don't give a damn what some say about the bagavad gita…i believe that we can evolve to a place of peace in this world, a respect for all of life, yes, a place of love and equanimity…and i will not accept anything less…something within me wont allow it…
like you Matt, i don't blame any single person for the bad shit that happens…that idea of karma never set well with me…but i do like your definition…lol
Matt, you touched me with your comments about prayer, knowing i think, that you are aware of how i feel about that…there is no god entity out there to pray to that is going to fix anything…at least not that i can see…and i am certain you know this much about my beliefs, or lack there of…when i think compassionate thoughts about others, and hope for their safety and well being, whether i call it prayer or best wishes or whatever…i am not sure how that affects anything, except to make me feel better…that may be another topic for another thread, and one i look forward to discussing…but your kindness and sincerity was felt, understood, and appreciated…
all in all…i am not sure what is keeping us from figuring all this out and moving forward to a workable solution…we have some of the brightest minds among us here on gaia…and in the world…but i for one will not be fading into the background…as long as i have life within me…i will be pushing for solutions that will make us better….i cannot settle for the way things are when i know we have the potential for so much more…
again, thnx so much for commenting, as these things are so very important to me and to us…much love and joy to all…star…
Star, frankly, I think that the notion that there is some esoteric 'out there' reason for some people having compassion and some people not is a cop out actually.
I know for a fact that many people on the planet see themselves as creatures of convenience or not at all. If they care, they don't actively show it; they preach about it, they speak philosophically about it, they look at others doing it and say how better they should do it, but essentially they will not 'be the change' etc. They are disconnected from the idea of them personally acting in their existing space.
One significant reason I exempted myself from academia, religion and economy was the willingness of the key players in such instiutions actively [I keep emphasising active, because this is the true demonstration of intent, what you actually act out with…] sought to pursue agendas which retained life as we know it in its present form - replete with inequity and inequality. They insist on mainaining systems of elitisim… for the benefits of the small number of players that are in it.
I consider non-action to also be an action, consequently.
I have blind colleagues that are in the field helping people; exceptional brilliant individuals who feel that they have something to contribute to the suffering of individuals from their own limited resources for no return whatsoever. How could some of the biggest and best intellectual thinkers feel that they don't have anything to offer? How much of them selves are they actually willing to put out for a different outcome?
If I didn't operate in these 'high thinking' settings every single day and witness the lack of basic concern because of basic comfort, I would buy into this theory. Sorry, this really doesn't hold water for me… And let us not forget, I live and work in the developed as well as the developing world…
Final point: I have observed and been a part of tremendous efforts at giving by people with no money whatsoever TO people with financial wealth at their disposal, because of the feeling of abundance which that giving individual felt. Going deep, which frankly it is about time we did, the sense of consciousness that propels someone to give has nothing to do with what is resident in one's pockets or in one's bank account, it is what one has cultivated in one's heart over time.
The greatest effort at compassion ought to first be the steps to develop compassion for one's self as a human being, beyond the strict boundaries which one confines self in as the comfort zone.
That's it for me today. Off to see what I can do to help someone out.
Peace and love to whoever has a will to be part of it.
Sherri
ladies, ladies! great sharing of yourself…
as i see it, the root of all that is not love and compassion, is fear…this is what causes people to isolate, withdraw into themselves…fear can paralyze a person to the extinct that they 'shut off' and 'shut down'…until, something touches them, and gives them the courage to move forward out of that fear…
i tend to not judge others individually for the actions or lack thereof, for we can never actually walk in another's shoes…we cannot know what makes them the way they are exactly, but my guess, and according to the data, a serial killer was not born that way…usually they were tormented and abused themselves…
i agree Erin that there are all kinds of ways to help others, and i did not mean to suggest otherwise; i realized after the fact that i needed to add to that physical, emotionally and mentally also…there are so many ways that we can be limited, and so many reasons behind those limits…and i agree that those limits do not necessarily mean that one is or is not compassionate…all this stuff about compassion is over rated…i mean who is more compassionate…what is more compassionate…allowing a small child their fairy tales or telling them the truth about santa, no matter how bad it hurts? we need to grow up, and insist that others grow up as well…
sherri, regardless of whether or not you resonate with the theory of enactivism, you described it in your example…people working and interacting within their worldspace to change it…this has been going on long before the caveman, and i do not see this changing, it will just be a matter of how we change or evolves as we continue on in this 21st Century and beyond…it may be that we as humans will have to adapt to fake green lawns and the likes because water becomes unavailable, or that the houses we build will no longer use wood because trees are on the endangered species list, and the sunsets will not grace our eyes because of pollution…but humankind will continue to evolve and adapt for as long as there are humans…that is the nature of all living systems…
sherri, intellectual types have much to offer, and usually are in teaching jobs, or working in fields of psychotherapy, or doing research for cutting edge solutions and discoveries in the fields of science and medicine…without them, we would not have been able to experience so much of what we do experience…hot and cold running water, someone had to figure that stuff out! LOL…our inventors…everything we use that makes our life more comfortable came from these great minds…including this little laptop i am on…and the internet where you and i connect…
as far as giving is concerned, people have been giving to causes since there were causes to give…i am not sure that these are the solutions that are needed either, although i am not dismissing these organizations, and i see the good that they do…but let's face it…it has not worked…we need to figure out what will…
sherri, the only way to beat elitism…is to critically out think it…this is i suppose my main point…but this is not going to be easy…until we begin to address our earth and it's people as a living system, until we stop using band-aids where heart surgery is necessary, until we stop excluding and begin including, until we began looking at the deeper levels of fear and emotional instability and immaturity, and until we take our brains off cruise control and began expanding them to critically come up with new solutions and then start implementing those solutions…we will remain at the mercy of our own ignorance…
we cannot get away from this folks…we are all in this together…whether we want to be or not…i think we all do the best we can, until we learn to do better…i say we get on with the learning part…lol
i have said what i am fixing to say many times before…but i think our ideas concerning compassion have to be rethought also…we think we know what it means, but i sometimes don't think we have a clue…our ideas of love are limited…and ruled by emotional attachments…
thnx for sharing on my blog, and for allowing me to talk about matters that are most important to me in this way…
concerning prayer…i don't see how prayer changes a thing except how you feel…it makes those that are helpless feel better about not being able to do anything to change what they cannot change…but what one person cannot change, two just might be able to…and then, there were three…and the possibilities become greater…
i use to not want to confront others that thought different than me; there was a lot of fear i had to overcome to begin to speak out…if we as a world were to begin thinking for ourselves, and stop being so lazy mentally…so controlled emotionally…who knows what we could do…but thinking that there is something out there that is magically going to make things better, i find ridiculous today…WE have to make things better by holding one another accountable for our own actions and beliefs…by challenging one another to think and act in an awakened way…responsibly…
much love and joy…always, star…
Not too much to add at this point except that like I said, prayer and belief in it comes from experience of it working… I’ve had too many experiences with it to not see it as anything other than normal.
Thanks. Sherri
hey sherri, question…
is it the actual act of 'praying' that brings the change…or is it more like what matt said, that the praying actually brings people together in action…and that brings about change? or, does the actual ritual of praying just bring comfort to those praying when those praying find whatever situation uncomfortable?
and, what exactly are you praying to? energy? light? and does just praying cause the energy or light to manifest differently? if that is the case, we should all fall down on our knees right this minute and turn hurricane gustof back out to sea…see, this is reality that i see…and sometimes i feel like the lone ranger…lol
this is the fallicy of this belief that i see…where i understand where matt is coming from, i see many areas where this idea of praying to some great power or force limits our own interaction of doing…
having said that, when i was getting sober, and learning to face life on it's own terms, i did pray…every morning i turned my will and my life over to the care of god as i understood god…even then, i saw god as a higher power, or energy…this ritual eventually became one where i was praying to awareness…then i began turning it over to the universe…then i began praying to my own awareness…then i stopped praying…and just tried to remain aware in the here and now, and meet the universe as it unfolded before me…
but actually, what has kept me sober? i have not picked up a drink or a drug…and i have done extensive work on myself…when i cannot change the situation i find myself in, i invoke acceptance and serenity within…when i am faced with something that requires my interaction, i invoke willingness and courage to change…when i am not sure what the hell to do…i invoke wisdom to be able to determine what i can control and what i cannot…realistically…i critically analyse what it is i do believe and why, and i try to live responsibly within the here and now…
the last thing i found myself praying to, was my own awareness…after all, that is what really dictates what i do or do not do…
i am just sharing here, and in no way is this intended to make you 'feel' any which a way…this is just an honest expression of my ongoing living experience…and my questioning of yours is sincere…
much love and joy…
Perhaps you are still referring only to the tragedy at hand; I speak about prayer as a way of life, i.e. living meditation. If we are speaking about the tragedy I couldn't possibly say there is a start and end to the activity people participate in with respect to its resolutions… I won't get into that any further then.
Regarding our potential to change natural disasters etc. I actually believe anything is possible, if we believe. I have seen some serious stuff from true believers! Were there more active right now, you never know…
I want to also make the point that it isn't always people through which results are manifested… hardly.
Praying to whom… that is a good one. I believe everyone will have his own manifestation of God or whatever. I believe that is all rhetorical and for me, not particularly time well spent. To each his own. I speak out loud to the universe! I have an image of God that has carried me through the years, as a caring Father figure… probably because I didn't have a caring Father figure in my own life. But do I rely on that 'person' to do things for me? No.
I believe we have a lot in common in terms of determination and courage. That, more than anything else is what I think distinguishes the sheep from the goats, actually. I have, fortunately not had to overcome a chemical addiction in my life, in part because I was scared to even dabble in anything of the sort and was also quite scared of turning out like my brother who died at 48 from alcohol dependency… another brilliant life unfulfilled by the way…
What I have manifested in my space that had nothing to do with me physically going over and pulling out some cash and paying for it has been astronomical! It has been through focussed intention, asking for what I want and positively awaiting some results. A big part of the courage thing is letting go to the universe to work it out…
I recognise the power of the human consciousness and, using it with care, try to use it to bring about useful results. Lots have used it for selfish reasons, by the way. We simply have the choice of how to use it, once we acknowledge its potential.
Hope that answers the question. I definitely have to go work on my agenda for the week now.
Do take care. Love, Sherri
no…i am not speaking of just the present tragedy…i am using it as a tool to open up a conversation addressing what i see as the 'larger' picture…
Regarding our potential to change natural disasters etc. I actually believe anything is possible, if we believe. I have seen some serious stuff from true believers! Were there more active right now, you never know…
when you say anything is possible if we just believe…could you be more specific? i assume you are not referring to changing pumpkins into carriages, rats into horsemen, and rags into a formal gown? right?
I want to also make the point that it isn't always people through which results are manifested… hardly.
could you expound on this sherri? are you alluding to the 'idea' that there are actual 'spirits' out there somewhere that have power over us and cause things to happen? this is as i see it an extension of the fairy godfather/mother syndrome that for centuries man has delluded himself with…but i am willing to keep my mind open if you have legitamate reasons for knowing this, other than those dictated by what you 'feel' to be true…
I believe we have a lot in common in terms of determination and courage. That, more than anything else is what I think distinguishes the sheep from the goats
so human beings are distinguished into the catagory of sheep and goats depending on their determination and courage? where would that put Hitler?
What I have manifested in my space that had nothing to do with me physically going over and pulling out some cash and paying for it has been astronomical! It has been through focussed intention, asking for what I want and positively awaiting some results. A big part of the courage thing is letting go to the universe to work it out…
could you again be specific? i am assuming here that you have not manifested material things with your mind, right? again, would like to be clear on exactly it is you are saying…b/c, in my experience, just focusing my intention did not really change anything, except maybe how i felt about whatever…and waiting for results is like waiting on a sky-god to answer my prayers…if i am hungry, i best get off my ass and find something to eat…lol…i am not minimizing the universe, or it's power as a whole…but believe now that it takes us participating within our universe and world to bring about changes…praying for rain does not make it rain…focusing on starving children does not change the facts that children are starving…
I recognise the power of the human consciousness and, using it with care, try to use it to bring about useful results. Lots have used it for selfish reasons, by the way. We simply have the choice of how to use it, once we acknowledge its potential.
this is interesting to me…could you maybe specify what 'power' of the human consciousness you are talking about, how to use it with care, how to bring about useful result when using it, and how you believe that it can become a choice, and how we can acknowledge it's potential?
these questions will be waiting for you when you have time or want to engage…don't work to hard sherri, and much love and joy…always, star…
Simple answers to: do I want to expand etc. ‘No’. It’s just my truth.
Do enjoy finding yours :)
Blessings to you! Sherri
thank you for your honesty…
was giving this idea of 'truth' some further attention, and asking myself what my truths are actually, and have to concede that truth is always changing…it is not concrete…of course there may very well be some universal truths that remain concrete…but those truths just supply the context for experiencing to experience…those truths may try to tell us how, and why, but those truths have nothing to do with the actual process of living experiencing…
today it may be true that allowing my child to play in the middle of the street is unwise…tomorrow, the street may be the only safe place children will be able to play…
we may also hold to the universal truth of love thy neighbor as thyself, but what is the true way to love thyself? if it is anything like we are mirroring as a world…then we are not truly loving ourselves or our neighbors…and while it may be true…it's being true isn't getting us any closer to world solutions…
what is true or false must be examined realistically before we are able to live truth in the here and now…and that truth must be productive…producing results that are working…if it is not, then it should be discarded, and new truths that supply workable solutions to age old problems should be adopted…
again sherri, thnx for our back and forth…star…
some further thoughts, that may or may not be welcomed…
when we 'shut down' and refuse to explore possibilities, or to even examine and understand the beliefs we cling to, holding on to 'our' truths…no matter what…
communication, and potential for change…STOP…
this is that 'fear' i was talking about…which may express itself in a hundred ways…and be labeled with just as many different words…but simply looked at, we 'need' to 'feel' safe and confidant in our beliefs…and so we allow these concrete truths, no matter how irrational they might be proved to be, prevent us from growing and learning in the open ness of our potential…
when we begin to look at things honestly, and acknowledge our limits, it is in this open space that our understanding can breathe…
may we all open up and learn how to communicate honestly and respectfully with one another, so that our potential can be realized in each moment of the here and now…
Erin, would you not agree that our 'ideas' concerning compassion are limited?
this is my point concerning compassion…compassion is what we think it is…and what we think is conditioned, and always limited…which means it always contains the potential to open…and change…
joy, thnx for responding…*
Ern, that does not make sense…are you saying that our ideas are not limited? that we KNOW, or in this case, you KNOW, exactly what compassion is?
can you please put it in a bottle and market it then? LOL…although, even if that could be done, it's meaning would have to change out of necessity to meet the changing needs of an evolving world…
if compassion is not static, if it is endless, timeless, every changing spontaneously to it's pertinence in this very moment…creating it's own potential as we continually evolve…then how can it be known? knowing it, limits it…defining it…limits it…
we might be able to define it in the moment we are experiencing…but by it's very nature, it is required to change according to the conditions it faces…and cannot be limited except by our 'ideas' concerning it…
my point is still this…those definitions are limited…your further explanation is limited…
therefore, our 'ideas' concerning compassion are limited…
it might help for us to explore the ways that this is true…
erin, you are getting off topic…let's try something simple to bring us back to where the discussion seemed to go off in spastic directions, which we might want to explore…but one thing at a time…k?
are our 'ideas' concerning compassion limited?
i could also add to that…
is not selfishness a matter of judgment?
that's cool…maybe we can let it sit for a while and come back to it…
in the meantime, i have a few questions for you…
you used the word biologically…can you explain what you mean by selfishness being defined in this way? cause i am not understanding this…
also, are you saying that compassion is not limited by our ideas, but by our selfishness, right? is that a correct understanding of your view?
when i said off topic, maybe it would be more accurate to say that you were introducing other aspects to the conversation, before i understood where you stood on the ones we were discussing…does that make sense?
by all means rest your brain…lol…i KNOW how that can be…but here are some questions for you to come back to, if and when your brain feels up to it…
It can be limited by one's belief in limitations.
so does this mean that you believe that compassion is only limited by our belief that it is limited? and even if this is so, is that not what i said, basically, that compassion is only limited by our 'ideas' concerning it? (we are getting closer i think…lol)
My ending thoughts for now, are that I do believe altruism is inherent and I do believe we can create limitations to exercising it that may be illusory limitations - for a number of reasons and affected by a number of factors. Simplexity, at its finest lol.
could you give some examples as to what these illusory limits might be?
from my experience, i can 'feel' what i call compassion all day long, seven days a week, and twice on Sunday…but these are only my ideas concerning what i believe about compassion, or what i believe it to be…
compassion, as i see it…must be an action, not taken just in my mind…
iow, all the outpouring of action for New Orleans right now, if left in the conceptual phase of planning, would have remained just that…it is when it was actually put into motion, that it became active compassion…living and breathing…and touching the lives of those it encountered…
we consider this a loving example of compassion…and yet, true compassion may not always be considered loving by our ideas concerning it…
is altruism an idea or a belief?
so you don't have an opinion on whether or not altruism is an idea or a belief?
if you were to take the position that it is a belief, would it not stand to reason that it had to be an idea first?
these are simple questions, much simpler than the ideas that Dawkins proposes…
and these are questions that i am asking you, to clarify what you have stated on this thread…if i wanted to know about what Dawkins believed i would go read about it…LOL
Erin…i'm not holding a gun to your head…lol…if you don't want to reply…DON'T…LOL
but one thought for you to think on…you agree with someone else's theory, and you can't even explain it? yet you have adopted it as a belief? why would you do that?
i started this thread so we could share our experiences of living…and investigate what we believe, and remain open so that we might investigate truth together…when we speak from out heart…truth shines through…when we speak about what we know…it resonates…when we speak from confusion…confusion is voiced…when we speak from clarity…it is understood…it is a scary place, i will agree…to let go of all that we have been taught, and all that we might believe…yet use that intelligence and knowledge to find truth in the moment of now…
much love and joy erin…always, star…
when Katrina hit New Orleans, the world watched then too…but it was an entirely different situation…
the government did not know what to do, so it did nothing…but pray…
this is i suppose the point of this entire thread…when we are frustrated or overwhelmed…and don't know what to do…we do nothing…and so we 'pray' to make ourselves 'feel' better…
no one has been able to convince me that these prayers do anything but that…
and upon investigating what would make me move off this couch, away from this gaia, to participate in what is going on…in a more 'hands on' way…i have to honestly say it would be if it hits closer to home…my friend erin brought up Dawkins, who goes into detail about the genetic and biological reasons that this is so…basically what he says is that we are born selfish…and we take care of ourselves first…then we look to our families, then friends, and communities, and in cases of diasters, they are the ones that get our attention first…but this is not true in every case…and although i do know that dna and genetics through evolution biology plays a part in how we behave, it does not have to dictate it in this way 100% of the time…iow…we do have choices we can make…we have brains, and we can use them if we so desire…to critically analyse the best solutions that would address the immediate circumstances…
at this point, most have been evacuated…even some of them to Memphis where my daughter and other family members are safe…my niece and her loved ones in Mississippi are also presently safe…i have not heard from JK, a gaia member…i know he and his family live close to what is going on…am hoping he will check in and let us know that he is ok…
many have already began getting things together that they think will be needed, some are waiting to see what will be needed; i plan to participate on this end in any small way that i can…they already have thousands and thousands of volunteers ready to go help with the clean-up, that are just waiting for the storm to ride itself out…
in contemplating this storm another way…i am reminded of Katrina and all the things that were said, supposed reasons why New Orleans was hit…none of those reasons are accurate that do not deal with scientific facts…saying that they are receiving their karma only allows those that say it, to ignore what is happening, and make themselves once again 'feel better' about being powerless…
while it is true, that mankind has added to the affects of global climate change, it is more difficult to prove this scientifically in specific ways…but it is also true, that the world will begin to see more of what can only be seen in my mind, as the outrage and anger of Mother Nature against the atrocities done to her over time…
always, star…
btw…anyone wanting to 'take action' can call your local red-cross…Obama people are waiting to find out exactly what will be needed before sending care packages…and people are waiting to be sent to areas that will need on the ground clean up efforts…
right now, i want to once again give credit to all those that have made this evacuation possible, and all those that are helping in other neighboring states to accommodate the influx of literally thousands, and welcoming them into their states, offering them shelter and protection from this monstrous storm…also all those that have remained to do the necessary reporting…this is an awesome example of humanity in action…and i applaud it…
i also want to encourage anyone that needs to voice their concerns to feel free to do so here…i do realize that sometimes we cannot do anything else…and i am not saying that it is in anyway 'wrong' to do so…that was never my intention with this thread…
always, star…
i think there is a whole nuther aspect of the attention being given this storm and New Orleans in general…
25% of U.S. oil is pumped, refined, and sent to various other areas within the U.S., from the area that is being hit by this hurricane…the impact of this on American's, promises to be tremendous…they are not talking about it a lot…b/c, it would not be politically correct to be ascertaining how the rest of us will be affected when there are more important concerns presently of human life, and human loss in general…
however, it does tie into the general essence of my thread…when it affects us in general, we are more apt to engage in actual action…so it is understandable why there is in general, more focus on New Orleans than anywhere else…
right now, they are concerned with it's infrastructure, if it will continue to hold, and how long it will take to get New Orleans up and running again…beneath that surface…lie the very reasons of focus…DEPENDENCE ON OIL…don't shoot me, i am just the messenger here! lol…in all seriousness…
all of my family members have been accounted for, except my uncle in Biloxi…it is difficult to get a clear picture on other areas hit, b/c of the focus that is being devoted to New Orleans…if anyone has a clearer picture or information concerning these other areas, could you please post it here? it would be much appreciated….thnx…
always, star…
Erin, understood, however; i have a very difficult time adopting something as IS, when those that believe it to be as IS, are not willing to explain why it IS, or how it IS, as it relates to their living experiencing of it as IS…
are you certain you are not fearful of being misunderstood? and maybe want to be percieved as this person that KNOWS what IS…and just hasn't got time or does not want to be bothered to tell us about it?
that is ok Erin…but i would not be true to myself if i did not challenge what you just posted…which i understood as this…
you are beyond conditioning and beyond being bothered with sharing how that IS…b/c you don't want to be misunderstood or frustrated…and that is cool with me…but let's just be honest about what exactly you are saying here…
all the best my friend…star…
if you are taking this personal…that is your doing…not mine…you are responsible for your beliefs and how you feel, so don't even try to put that off on me…i am questioning beliefs here…and never once have made you post anything or made you feel one way or the other…i don't have that kind of power…and am only responsible for my own beliefs and actions, and the way i feel…i am not responsible for the way you perceive things…
always, star…
as far as 'my tone'….i am trying to remain open, investigating our beliefs in general, and why we believe them, and the truth of them…as openly and honestly as i know how to do…if you have taken offence to that…again, that is on you…
respectfully…star…
accepting things as they are…is difficult for us as a human race…we don't want to think that we are so fragile…we don't like to face the many areas in which we are truly powerless…and we desperately want to believe that there is someone or something out there that is in control, or at least able to help us in a definate way…
and so, we believe…we pray…we do…what is usually in front of us to do…or, we ignore it when it comes knocking…sometimes, until it actually…blows our house down…
may the tornado's and hurricanes of truth…blow our constructed illusions up…and allow us to rebuild…on the grounlessness of truth…together…in the harmony of what IS…
i have to leave for a while now to gather with my family here…be safe everyone…make intelligent decisions…and be awake to now…it is all we really have…
much joy…always, star…
what a difference a day makes…
one part of the US is safe, another is threatened…life goes on…
as i pack today to leave for Memphis, i am reminded that circumstances of the now are so indifferent to my little plans…the universe unfolds the way it does, and it is best to meet it in the moment…do the best i can, and remain open to all possibilities…
there is so much that is not known…but this very moment of life experiencing, can be known…it is where truth is actually experienced and lived…in the everchanging moment of now…
much love and joy to all…star…